Most people will agree that the meaning of ‘home’ transcends its physical boundaries, but connecting to a sensation of home in moments of transition, displacement, or disruption can feel like a stretch. In this transcript, Hollis and Kimmy delve into safety, comfort, and ownership as distinct pillars of the home experience. They discuss strategies for nurturing a stable foundation within, even amid life’s transitions, offering a few fun tools valuable to finding home within ourselves and our environments.

Listen to their conversation.

Image by Hector Tre.

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Hollis: Hi, Kimmy.  

Kimmy: Hi, Hollis.

Hollis: I'm so glad we're back recording together. I took a little break with the last relationships episode, but I always love it when we get to have our discussions together.

Kimmy: Yeah, me too. It's always very clarifying for me when we get to have a conversation like this because oftentimes there are things that are bouncing around in my mind. It's rare when you get to have a very long conversation about one specific subject without going off in different tangents and feeling the need to take a break. Or like the person you’re talking to is being bogged down by the emotions surrounding this one specific feeling. So having a dedicated time to really get into it is fantastic.

Hollis: Yeah, it's like therapy in a way, you know?

Kimmy: I hope listeners feel that a little bit. This is your opportunity to really get into it without feeling the pressure of moving on to something else. We can really exhaust it here.  

Hollis: Yeah, completely. As you say that, I feel like my brain just operates that way at this point. I spend so much time listening to other podcasts and reading specific subjects at a time, and I'm like, is this really just how my brain works mostly?  

Kimmy: Yeah, I do too. I do too! And maybe that's why we work so well together. It's helpful for me to have a lot of questions answered and to be able to sit with something for a while without feeling like I have to bounce to something else. I think that’s the way that we operate so often now. We are bouncing to so many things all the time. When it's a more complex topic or a seemingly simple topic that is more complex than it seems, it can take a bit of time to get into it and to break things down and to really let things sink in.

Hollis: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I feel like what you're describing is a very good description of the podcast, but it's also a very good description of today's subject as well, which is the subject of home. You know, I think if you ask most people what home means to them, they'd probably come back with a pretty quick response. But then when you really think about it, it's so nuanced, and there are so many ways to describe home or to think about home or to feel at home. Every person's definition and experience of home is going to be really different. This makes me kind of think of how Krista Tippett always starts her episodes of On Being where she asks people about their original experience with spirituality or faith growing up. If you were to ask people about home, it would be really similar, like what was your experience of home growing up and how that would be so informative to describe the person and who they are and how they live their lives. It's a really foundational quality for everybody, and it's always going to be different. You can even take siblings who grew up in the same household, and they'll have entirely different experiences of what their home life was, you know, so it's vast and very complex. And yeah. And I love being able to discuss all those details with you.  

Kimmy: Me too. Me too. It really is so complex. I think you're right on about your definition of home as a child being informative to how you experience home as an adult or your relationship with home. But I think also, at least in my experience, my definition of home and my relationship to home has shifted so much as I've grown into myself more and become a little bit clearer on what those qualities and feelings of home are for me as an adult making my own home, making decisions for myself. As a kid, a lot of your home life is decided for you, and that can absolutely lead to your relationship to home and what you desire for home in the future. As you start to make more decisions for yourself, whether they be based on an experience of home as a kid or being surrounded by other experiences of home from friends or family members, it starts to veer into its own path more and more as we get older and mature. But I was wanting to ask, what would you say is a quick definition of home that would just come to you?

Hollis: Yeah, I would say that home is where, when, and who I feel safe with and safe to be myself with. I used to do this thing at the end of a yoga class, and it wasn't all the time, but it was one that I always had kind of in my back pocket. In shavasana, when you're letting people rest and you come to the final rest in class, I would always describe it or I would sometimes describe it as imagining you're coming home and you're laying down all of your bags. Maybe you sit down in your favorite comfortable chair and you just let yourself completely relax, and that's what I think of when I think of the experience of home. You don't have to perform, you don't have to put on a face. You're not carrying stuff around. You can just be and you can feel safe to just be. So that's really what I think of. And then the visual in my mind is always like sitting in front of a fireplace too. I never included that in my description, but that's what I always think of.

Kimmy: There's nothing homier than sitting in front of a fireplace and hearing the crackle and just, oh, it's such a peaceful comforting energy that just tells you to relax and to be at ease.

Hollis: Yeah, absolutely. What would your quick response to that question be?

Kimmy: I think my quick response would just be a place where you feel comforted and nourished, and like you can be yourself. What's interesting about that quick response is that I think of a place. And that place can obviously have people in it, and it's a place that will invoke a quality of home in the body and comfort in the body and nourishment in the body, but I'm kind of imagining a physical space and I think as the experience of home becomes a little bit more of the body, it's clear to me how to create those feelings of home in the body and what those are. But yeah, it's still a concept that I'm trying to figure out. Finding home in the body and finding home in different spaces when you have a little bit less control over what that physical space looks like and the things in that physical space, which will give you a feeling of comfort and a feeling of ease and nourishment. So I love that your definition considers the people and, I think you said the, the people, the place, and one other thing that I'm missing.

Hollis: The way that I, yeah, the way that I think about home, I mean, I think our foundational experience of home definitely has to do with the place, just based on our language. Like we're going home or I'm heading home or, you know, ohh I left that thing at home. That's kind of like our day-to-day way that we use it in our language. But I think if we were to dissect the definition a little bit more, it would be inherently connected to safety and security and also a place of ownership. It's something that's ours, you know, it's our space, it's our little plot of land, or our little space on this planet that we've decorated ourselves. That we, you know, pay for and take care of and tend to and all those things. And so it becomes this extension of who we are. There is this connection when we're talking about home in the body or home with other people or home in other places. It's being able to translate that experience of safety and groundedness and foundation and ownership to wherever you are. When I also think about home, I think about the root chakra particularly, which is our lowest chakra, it's our most foundational chakra, and the energetic qualities that come with the root chakra are everything to do with safety, with grounding, feeling stable, feeling secure, feeling like you can trust yourself. That you can trust the environment, that you can protect yourself, or that there's some sort of self-possessive action.  

The things that shake our root chakra have everything to do with fear or feeling like we are not safe or that we're somehow threatened in some way. I would also argue that the majority of people on this planet do not have a stable root chakra for a variety of reasons. There are so many examples of fear-based systems, whether they be physical or energetic or emotional, that we're all contending with. So that connection to stability, safety, that sense of foundation, that sense of self-possession in your own body, let alone in places outside of yourself, can be really, really difficult to define and understand for yourself beyond just a physical building or a physical space that you occupy. I think it can be even harder to translate the experience of a physical home space into your body's physical home space. If that makes any sense?

Kimmy: It does. I have been reading about grounding in the root chakra and different practices that you can do to ground in that way. But, you know, if you're someone who's not as into yoga or breath work, (which is what a lot of those grounding practices involved) is there anything that you would recommend for grounding? Like other techniques or practices that people could think about for something like that?

Hollis: Yeah, it's a good question. I think I would first ask someone, whoever is asking me that question or whoever is pondering that question, to think about when and where and who they feel safe with. Like what is, what is their personal relationship to safety and security first, and what does safety look like and feel like?  

There's this really great show on Apple TV called ‘Home’ and it's a home remodeling show. But it's really beautiful and it's actually more poetic than many of those shows are. It's less about the construction and more about everybody's individual experiences of home. And I think across the board, there's a description of the space being less about the actual physical space and more about the experience that you have in it. And so when you're trying to recreate experiences of home, I think you first have to think about what makes you feel the most comfortable, but comfort stemming from that experience of safety and security. So I would ask first, when have you felt the most safe to be yourself with other people? And then what defined those experiences? Was it that you were able to be vulnerable and that vulnerability was received with a lot of support and compassion and understanding? Was it because you were able to have a lot of fun with other people? Is it because you were completely honest with yourself and by being that honest and truthful with yourself and really seeing yourself transparently you were able to take a new level of ownership of who you are and responsibility for who you are? And then, you know, the other things, like is it a big comfy couch that you love? What is it physically that you're like oh, I just can physically feel this on a certain level where I just feel held and I just feel cared for, whether it be by, you know, again an experience or a place or person or by yourself.  

And so yes, yoga practice is fantastic for grounding. Breath work is fantastic for grounding. But, you know, other people I think feel really grounded from swimming or doing things that are not actually connected to the actual ground, by reading or spending time with certain people in their life. It really depends on what it is that brings the person the most sense of centeredness in themselves and ability to feel really comfortable in who they are.  

But then from there I just want to keep going with that a little bit because then from there I would ask the person to then think about situations where they would feel uncomfortable or they would feel out of place. For example, let's say you walk into a room and it's a bunch of people that you don't know and maybe you have this feeling of impostor syndrome, or you shouldn't be there or, you know, they're not your people or whatever. And how can you translate that feeling? What would help you translate that feeling of comfort, of security, of safety into that moment? And that's where I think there has to be an ability to take those sensations and know how to activate them in yourself for yourself so that you really feel safe within your body. And that's where things like a mantra, something that you say to yourself, doing a power pose in the bathroom, having certain breath work technique, you know, all of those things could be really valuable because in the moment you can reach for those things and it can be like a subliminal cue that you're safe, even if you're not surrounded by the people or you're not in the environment or you don't have the things that are going to make you feel completely at home and yourself.

Kimmy: Yeah, you make a really, really good point because the practices that we might reach for, I feel like they would have a very low success rate if you didn't have that reflection before to know why you're doing the practices and why those practices are grounding and how to approach them with an intention of grounding and feeling that sense of sturdiness and sense of home and sense of stability and safety.  

So I think, like most things it, it does make sense that, of course, there's that check in that reflection before. I had a very good friend tell me one time, and this was a point a very, very high anxiety in my life, and she recommended that when I'm in situations where I feel highly anxious to check in with myself and ask, ‘Am I being myself right now? Am I really being myself?’ And I think that's like a non-negotiable feeling of home for me, is feeling like I can be myself. And often when we're in situations where we feel displaced, we don't always have that connection with self. It's harder to find that real sense of authenticity and comfortability and acceptance with people or experiences around us. When you feel like you're not at ease and that sometimes just takes a little bit of checking in and having that reminder. Like, OK, can I bring a little bit more of myself into this?  

And in some situations you're just going to feel uncomfortable. Like that's very human. And I don't think that it's as easy as having, you know, a little reminder all the time. But because so many things are fear based, it can be hard to just turn that on or turn off the feeling of needing to perform or be someone else or be palatable for other people.

Hollis: Yeah. And as you were talking, I was thinking about how these other things that we describe as home, like our physical space or the people that that we're with that we feel like home with, these are kind of the external reminders of who we are. You know, we set up our homes as an expression of who we are or as an extension of who we are. I mean well, not everybody does that, but I would say I think most people do that. You know, we want to feel comfortable in our space. And so when we step into our homes, we are reminded of who we are. We are reminded of that kind of center point within ourselves. It's like, OK, this is me and I can feel safe and nurtured because I'm surrounding myself with myself. And same thing with the people that we most love and spend time with. They remind us of who we are and also who we most want to be, you know, or who we are when we're at our best. Those are the external reminders. Those are the external guiders or helpers that bring us back to our sense of home in ourselves. But then when we are out in the world on our own or we're feeling that sense of displacement, like you said, it can be hard to access that feeling of centeredness, of home, of who we are without those reminders. But if we consciously do the work on a regular basis, just to remind ourselves and to feel at home within ourselves on a on just a frequent basis, using whatever practices that we can or that we have at our disposable, it becomes more of a habit. And it becomes more easily recognized that no matter what situation you're in, no matter how displaced you're feeling, there is a home to come back to within yourself. And sometimes it might also take a little while to get back there, especially if you don't have the resources or the external support, but it is always, always there.

Kimmy: You are someone who travels a lot and finds home in a lot of different places and not everyone can do that. What has been your experience with feeling like you can travel and be on the go and still be settled in different places on a regular basis? I feel like when I travel or even if I’m looking to a period of time that's very busy or there's a big transition, I get anxious and stressed at the idea of the back and forth. Having to carry all my stuff with me and settle somewhere and then move somewhere else, it makes me feel a little bit stressed out, especially if I have a lot of things back-to-back. Don't get me wrong, I love to travel but I will feel pressure from that.

Hollis: Mm-hmm. Is the pressure just because of the time constraints or do you feel like it has to do with feeling like you're not as rooted?

Kimmy: I think the pressure is feeling not as rooted, and then also getting back into the swing of things when you come back to your space. That always takes a bit of time for me, and I'm a pretty routine person. Being out of a routine kind of throws me sometimes, and I am definitely not good at keeping a routine when I am traveling, and I don't really want to. Because often, you're traveling with other people, there are other things in place. And I feel like when I've tried to keep a routine, it almost stresses me out more than anything else because it feels like it's something that I have to keep up with all the time, even when it doesn't make sense or it's annoying for other people that I'm traveling with. So I kind of throw my routines out the window. So then getting back onto something that feels pretty good for me is a hard mental switch to be like, "OK, this makes me feel good here, and this makes me feel good.” And how do I come back to that? And I need to go grocery shopping and I need to do my laundry. You know, all those life things.

Hollis: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So there's a lot of things that I feel like I could say in response to that, but I think the first thing that I would think of if we're talking about general displacement or stepping away from your home and going off and venturing out somewhere else. Let's say you're traveling or you're moving homes, or there's a variety of reasons why, you know, you might become temporarily without a home or your particular home, your owned space. What I would recommend everyone do actually, and as I'm saying this, I'm realizing that I think about this all the time. I think about this kind of version of a scenario all the time, which is to think about the worst-case scenario. Which I know sounds awful, but imagine you had none of the things. You didn't have the home. You didn't have the tools. You didn't have any of the external physical material things that reminded you of home. And you're walking around in the world and you just have yourself. What is it that would remind you of the safety and security that you have within yourself? I mean, there are so many things that I can think of. But again, I think that's going to be different for every single person. And that would be the very first thing that I would say you have with you all the time that you can rely on.  

You know, obviously, I don't love bringing up that kind of question or that kind of scenario for people to imagine because it's very isolating and can also often lead to thoughts of really dark things potentially. But if we're thinking about that most essential layer of self-possession, self-trust, self-security, that's what I'm talking about. I'm talking about none of the external stuff, none of the people, none of the things. How do you have yourself? How do you hold yourself? And then from there, what are the things that you would immediately add on that would make you feel like this is home for me?  

Aside from traveling a lot, when I was growing up, I went from house to house every other day, from my mom's house to my dad's house to my mom's house to my dad's house. And so, my home was always moving. And I always, I always had to plan for what I needed, not just the next day, but the day after that and plan for the future. And of course, that didn't always work out perfectly. But it was something that I learned how to do. And it wasn't until much later in my life that I realized I compartmentalized my life completely. Like I had a different life with my mom. I had a different life with my dad. If I stayed with my grandmother, I had a different life there. And it wasn't until I was in my 20s really where I started to merge all of those versions of me into one self, which actually took a lot of work. But by doing that, I recognized what are the things that are essentially me that I carried with me from all these different places. And they are with me, no matter where I am. What were the things that were not me, that were part of just the environment that I was in? The things that are either palatable versions or the versions that helped me in that particular space. So, you know, I think it can be fun to think about, oh, we're going to be this person if we go on this vacation or we're in this environment or whatever, but. I don't think that that's ever really true. Like my mom and I talk about this sometimes. Like, you know, when you go to a vacation spot and you see people wearing clothes and you're like, you don't wear anything like that when you're at home. Like, that's like an entirely different version of you!

Kimmy: Oh, so you've seen me on vacation?

Hollis: It's so funny because I think about myself, and no matter where I am in the world, I'm wearing the exact same stuff, like my outfits are not changed. They'll change depending on the climate, obviously, but for the most part, I'm pretty much exactly the same. Wherever you see me, whether I'm in the Caribbean or in Europe or whatever. So, but I think about that like, who would you be, what qualities would you have with you no matter where you were in the world? And you can think of them as metaphorical outfits if that visualization helps. But yeah, those kind of essential things. Those define who you are and those define your sense of home within yourself more than anything, and then the more you can connect to those qualities and to yourself on a regular basis, the more you can really feel like, oh, I'm at home no matter where I am. And that's the kind of self-possession that I try to emphasize as much as possible in my client work, but also just in general, because that's a kind of security that you can have no matter what room you walk into, anywhere in the world. And it's an inner sort of power that is, as one of my old professors in college would say, un-fuck-with-able. Like you just become so unshakeable because you're like, I know myself and I know what essential qualities I bring to the table. And yeah, that will sometimes be skewed and shifted. Like you said, we're all human. There are going to be situations where it's not easy for you to connect with that or it's not easy for you to express that with other people. But that doesn't mean that it's not there or that you don't have access to it on a regular basis and that it's, you know, not accessible for you. So does that answer your question?

Kimmy: Yes, it completely does. The reference about outfits is so funny because my best friend and I will go shopping and we'll be at a thrift store and see something, we'll be like, Oh my gosh, but imagine us wearing this for this. And it's only that one scenario and we've leaned into it at times. Where one year we're like, you know what? This is my dancing year. This is the year where I'm going out dancing in New York City and I'm THAT girl. And then you have, like five outfits with, you know, a cheetah print skirt. And you're like, like, when would I ever wear this, apart from that one night when I'm dancing girl? And now I have this forever, or until I look at it enough and decide that I am not gonna wear that in my day to day and eventually pass it along.

Hollis: Well, you can also think about it like, the way that I think about us as a whole is that where many, many parts. So in the same way that a house has different rooms, you know, and different purposes for different rooms, we have different parts and different parts that have different purposes. So it's very important for you to have the dancing part of you, and to have an outfit that accompanies that, you know? So if that's, you know, if that's a part of who you are, then absolutely. I now live in the suburbs and I'm not gonna be going dancing in New York City very often, so I do not have dancing...well actually I do have dancing outfit. But that's another story.

Kimmy: You gotta have a couple, you know?

Hollis: Exactly. It's important to have all of the things that decorate the different versions of who you are, but also underneath that that person, there is also a more essential version of you, like an a more essential quality of you, and that too is going to be with you, no matter if you're the dancing girl or if you're the literary scholar, you know, touring libraries all over. Whatever it happens to be, there's going to be essential versions of you that inform these different parts of yourself as well. And you can think of that as like the heart of your home or the hearth of your home.

Kimmy: I love that. I remember a moment when I was in my second apartment? No, third apartment in New York. I moved around every year for the past three years and there was a sense of, just like, I can't set things down because I know I'm going to have to pick up and move. And that feeling, it's very disorienting because, you know, I didn't have the tools. I never thought about what was going to make my body feel grounded. I mean, I was not thinking about that. I just had this kind of under the surface feeling of like, I can't settle. I can't settle here.  

And then I was like, what if I just operated as if I was settling here, even if it's temporary, even if it's just for a bit of time. And that was a major breakthrough moment for me because there weren't a ton of things that changed, but I did. I allowed myself to make this space and allowed myself to inhabit this space in a way that felt a lot more connected and appreciative for this space because I wasn't looking at it as this temporary thing. And I think that we can adopt that mentality for travel sometimes, but especially if you're a person who's in transition and you're moving. I mean, I know so many New Yorkers or people who are in situations where they're moving houses or apartments a lot will experience this. It's just hard to like, take things out of boxes, put them down, feel like they have a place and feel like you can decorate the space so the space can become somewhere you want to inhabit, even if it's just for a short period of time, even if it's just temporary. And so I have tried to remember that in moments when I feel when I feel less grounded, or when I'm bopping around or have a big transition coming up.

Hollis: Yeah, I'm so glad that you described that because I think that is an experience that a lot of people can relate to. Is that feeling of like, "OK, I'm here, but I'm like one foot out the door. You know, I'm ready to move. I'm ready to leave whenever, and I'm not going to let myself settle." And I think what you're describing is also the feeling of being able to take up space, of being able to say, "I can be here and I can fully unwind, I can unravel, I can let go, and I can take up as much space as I need and kind of lounge in this space.” You know, even if it's even if that means I then have to get up and, you know, put everything back on, pull myself together and put everything back in the boxes and move. Again, and I honestly just realized this, but there was a year, not last year, but the year before where I was traveling a lot, more than I had traveled in a really long time. Like every other week kind of situation. And I started doing this thing that I never used to do, which was that I would unpack once I got to my place. I would unpack all of my suitcase and I would put everything in drawers. Or, you know, wherever clothes needed to go. So I would put all my toiletries away and I would take out all the things that I needed and I literally took up all the space that I needed to with my stuff and that made me feel like I could settle. It wasn't like I left everything in the suitcase, even if it was just for two days.

I would take everything out and let myself completely take up the space or the, you know, the home. For that temporary period of time. And I think even just psychologically, that was like a cue for myself that I could feel comfortable and settled in that space. And so I think whatever metaphorical thing that you need to do to allow yourself to feel like you can let go and let yourself kind of sink into wherever you are and fully take up the space that you're occupying. Instead of feeling like you're, you know, you're confined, or that you have to be tense because you're going to be out soon. I think energetically it makes a huge difference if you have that approach versus the one foot out the door approach. So I'm so glad that you brought that up because I think it's a really key component to feeling like again, I can just be here. I can be myself. I can unwind. I can let go, and I don't have to worry about when I'm going to have to move again, because that future date is not right here, right now, that's in the future.  

Kimmy: Yeah. Yeah, it comes back to the safety thing. Like, you know, when you're living with one foot out the door, you're feeling like you always have to be ready to move, to get things together, to get out. And when you feel safe. Even in a temporary situation, you can live with two feet in the door. What a corny way of me describing that. I mean, I just had to.

Hollis: Well, I'm also picturing, yeah, two feet in the door and maybe you're rolling around on the rug. I mean, you're totally comfortable wherever you are.

Kimmy: Yeah, exactly, exactly. I know. When I said two feet in the door, I just imagined myself on the inside of the door, just standing, looking at the door. Are you imagining what I'm imagining? And it's not a comfortable image.

Hollis: Yeah, you’re still on the threshold.

Kimmy: Yes! I'm still on the threshold. I'm still looking at the door. So yeah, there's a better metaphor. You're rolling around on the rug, absolutely, or doing whatever is comfortable for you.

Hollis: So wait, I want to take this a little bit further for the listener. I want them to think about a situation where they have felt uncomfortable, like a room, a person, a place, whatever. What would be the metaphorical experience of you being able to roll around on the rug in that experience, and that would be like you feeling at home. And what would it be that you needed to do to be able to feel like you could roll around on the rug in that in that scenario? Because all of those things that you would do to get yourself to that place would inform how you could feel that safe and that comfortable in your body in that moment or with those people or whatever.

Kimmy: Do you have one that comes to mind?

Hollis: An experience or a thing that I would do.

Kimmy: The thing that you would do, yeah.

Hollis: So it's the thing that I think about a lot when I'm it's with people, more specifically, because I used to feel more uncomfortable if I was in a certain social situation that I didn't feel like I belonged in. I dated somebody for a while and virtually with everyone I hung out with with him, I felt like I didn't belong. And because I was confronted with that so much, I pretty much got to the point where I was like I have to get comfortable. I have to let myself feel like I can be here and like I deserve to be here just like everybody else here.  

I think about those experiences, because what I also recognize in those moments was that everybody else who was in those rooms with me or just other human beings, you know, they just, they had all sorts of their own problems. They had their own ambitions. They had their own like challenges. All sorts of things. And this is kind of bringing me to what I think about now more than anything. I've been working on this with my own particular reiki healer, it's the universal consciousness of recognizing that I am you. You are me. We are all the same. We are all the same, just in different vessels, in different bodies, in different homes. And so when I think about those social situations, and I started seeing all of the connections that we all had and all the ways that we were, you know, very similar and that we could all relate, even if it felt like initially we were all very different, that's when I felt more safe to just be myself. And so whenever I enter into situations now where socially, I'm like, this feels off putting in some way, I remember that I've already done this a million times with people that I felt really uncomfortable with and I was able to make myself feel comfortable by recognizing our shared experience. By recognizing all of our humanity. And there is no real hierarchy in human beings. We create hierarchies in our mind, we create social divides all the time. But really, those things are not there at all when you really think about it.  

And then on top of that, if I can look at you and say I see myself in you or I can look at somebody else who I see is really, really different and see that I am them and they're me, then that makes me feel like there is no disconnection and there's no reason to not feel safe because there is already so much that is shared between us which creates a sense of safety and security until proven otherwise. You know, if you're with people and you actually felt like you weren't safe or that you were threatened in some way, that's a clear sign to leave. But I think that, from my vantage point, that has to be proven. That doesn't have to be assumed. And I think we assume the fear first before seeing something to be afraid of.

Kimmy: That's such a great way to think about coming into a space and building connections with people and finding that sense of safety and security within yourself while also making space for other people to build that that sense of safety together. That sense of home together. Even in small connections, that's such a wonderful way to think about it.

Hollis: Well, because you can think about it on the micro scale, we are our own individual homes, right? Our bodies are our homes. And then there's the communal scale where we're talking about our friendships or communities or networks. But then the macro scale is we're all on this planet together, and we're all human beings on this planet together. Even though we're all different all over the world with different cultural backgrounds and, you know, different upbringings and all sorts of things. We are all having a human experience together and that is unifying no matter what. I think that you can pluck two people out of two totally different places and say, "OK, talk about your problems, talk about your experience of love, talk about your experience of friendship," and you would find a lot more similarities than differences. And so that also proves that home is being human with other human beings on planet Earth. Like this is our home. So if you really want to zoom out, that's the zoomed out picture.

Kimmy: I love that. You know, we're all inhabiting home together and have a responsibility to treat our home with kindness, treat ourselves with kindness, and treat others with respect and kindness so that we can create a really nurturing environment. In this home that we all share together. Looking at it at the micro and macro scale can really put things into perspective.

Hollis: Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I guess depending on what you need in the moment, the different perspectives can be really valuable if you need the macro or the micro, which for the micro. I have an exercise that I want to end the podcast on, for everybody that I think is really fun. I don't remember where I got this. I got it years ago. You can either do it as like an art practice as a creative practice, or you can also do it as a writing practice, or even just like a visualization practice. If you were to think about your heart as a home. So like, say you're, you're in an environment and you're walking along and then you see this building, this place and it is your heart, but it's also a building or a home and you were to walk into it. What would you see and how would you describe the different chambers of your heart, the different rooms? Who would be there? What does the environment around the heart look like? And just getting really clear about what that visualization looks like for yourself. I think about that kind of subconsciously, I'm realizing on a pretty regular basis, of what my heart home looks. Like and how it's also like it's a place that you can come back to if you're thinking about all these ways to feel at home within your body. This is a place that you can visualize for yourself, within yourself. That you can come back to and be like OK, I'm here. Energetically, I'm here and I'm safe within myself, inside my heart home. And you can see it in your mind. Or you can, you know, draw it and see the drawing in your mind or however you want to do it. But yeah, that's one that I love, and I really encourage everybody to explore.

Kimmy: That's so fun and beautiful. Like what a good Saturday night activity.

Hollis: Or yeah, if you're just like laying around on a Sunday afternoon, too, why does it have to be on a weekend? It should be on Friday, Venus Day. Any day. Really.

Kimmy: This is a weekday and weekend activity.

Hollis: Yes, absolutely, absolutely.

Kimmy: Well, thank you for that. I'm excited to do that. That's so fun. And such a such a beautiful way to think about it. I think having an exercise that taps into your internal landscape with the conversation about home or with the topic about home is really valuable. Especially since it is so often an external landscape that we so often imagine. So that's a really nice shift in perspective to think about, so thank you.

Hollis: Yeah. And I'm just realizing you can do it with a friend too, where you can even just talk it out. Because I'm remembering now, I did that with a good friend of mine. We sat and had tea one day at this really funky tea shop in Brooklyn. And we described what our heart homes would look like and it was actually really fun, like bouncing off different ideas about what would be included. So it's a fun social activity too. It doesn't have to be isolated.  

Well, is there anything else that you want to say or explore about the subject of home, the experience of home?

Kimmy: I don't think anything else is coming to mind, no. How about you?

Hollis: No, I feel like we covered a lot. Yeah, I really hope that this sparks some things for listeners with their relationship to home. And, you know, if there's other people too that are out there listening to this while they're in transition of home. And trying to figure out what home is for them, that there's some good things to ponder and explore.

Kimmy: Absolutely, yeah.

Hollis: All right. Well, great. Well, thank you for this wonderful, focused conversation on one subject. For an extended period of time.

Kimmy: Yes, thank you. I'm just always looking to talk about home for an hour.

Hollis: Well, hopefully we get together and do another one of these very similarly very soon.

Kimmy: Looking forward to it.

Hollis: Alright. Thanks again!