We begin our Relationship Series with a conversation about commitment. Hollis and Kimmy challenge our narratives around commitment by reframing our commitments as a practice in courage, empowering individuals to navigate their relationships and placements in the world with clarity and authenticity. From mutual growth to realistic expectations, they unpack the nature of staying committed to another while, most importantly, remaining committed to oneself.

Throughout the conversation, they explore the celebration of shared experiences, the importance of stability and security, and how we can stay aware of our tendencies to overcommit.  

Listen to the full episode.

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Hollis: Hey, Kimmy.

Kimmy: Hey, Hollis.

Hollis: I always wonder if I should say something more professional than just hi, but it feels like we're just starting a conversation. So just saying, hi, feels organic.  

Kimmy: I think 'hi' is good! If you were to say something more professional, what would it be?

Hollis: It would be. It would be. ‘Hi. My name is Hollis Maloney, and you're listening to The Designed Life Podcast and I'm here with Kimmy Anne Dunn, and today we're talking about...’ it would be something like that. It would be redundant, I guess, in terms of the introduction.

Kimmy: I like a good hi! Also when we say hi, it's always the exact same intonation.  

Hollis: It's true, it's true. Well, I guess I should just accept it and not expect anything else. I've been reading this book called Radical Acceptance and I think I just need to apply it to everything.

Kimmy: You need to radically accept your greeting on the podcast!

Hollis: Yeah, just lean into it. Just lean into it. Commit to it, as some people might say, yeah.

Kimmy: Commit to it, yes! What a what a perfect segue.

Hollis: Is it, though? No. Yeah. So today we’re talking about commitment. Oh, my gosh, it's funny because as I've been thinking about this topic, it doesn't feel initially dense, but then the more I was trying to encourage myself to go and write down some notes, write down some thoughts, it was actually pretty tough for me to put into words and to even to want to explore. And I think that’s really interesting because I would define myself as a committer, like I commit to a lot of things. I'm not afraid of commitment, but it made me really think about the emotional experience of commitment and how we relate to it.

Kimmy: Right. When I think of commitment, I usually think you're either committed to something and that means that it's a whole, like, life commitment or life sentence. And if you're uncommitted, you kind of have tons of options. And just initially thinking about it doesn't feel super dense to me either because it feels like it really narrows things and then being uncommitted kind of expands things. But I don't think that's the experience all the time.

Hollis: Yeah, I don't think that it's the experience all the time. I like to interchange commitment and consistency a lot, which I know that they're very different, but they're similar. And when I think about consistency, I think about I think about yes, repetition and doing things the same way all the time, but there's a freedom in having something that you can always rely on. Like a, you know, a morning routine that you can always rely on and that you naturally do and gets you into your right headspace. Or, you know, just a consistent practice or a consistent time of week that you do things or, you know, whatever it is it gives you something that you can look forward to and that you can count on. And that gives you a sense of structure. And when I apply that kind of perspective to the word commitment, I think that it's very much a part of commitment, but that's not always what I think comes to mind when you say commitment or that you're committing to something or that you've committed to something.

Kimmy: Right. I really like that idea of applying consistency in that way. Because thinking about it in that way, makes it feel a little bit more special and less of that sort of narrowing and more of like ‘this is a choice.’ Any sort of consistent practice that you have is a choice and is something that you ultimately choose for your betterment and for your well-being, even though staying consistent with something doesn't always feel awesome or you're not always looking forward to it. If you have a consistent exercise practice at the beginning of the day, and you wake up and you're like, ‘uh, I really don't want to do that’ or you're really not looking forward to it...I think the same thing can be true of the feelings in commitment, because it's just natural. You have those peaks and valleys of when it feels really awesome and when you feel like you're really in a flow. And there are times when you're disconnected and feel like you need to take breaks and kind of reevaluate and do all the things that are very natural for commitment and consistency.

Hollis: Mm-hmm. Completely, which I think is interesting when you apply everything that you just said to relationships and committing in relationships. Because I mean, you know, we always talk about relationships, not just in terms of romantic relationships, but also, you know, business partnerships, friendships, family relationships. I think most of the time in this episode, we'll probably be talking more about romantic relationships or from that vantage point, but I think that this could be applied to all relationships. We're beings that have an ebb and flow to us, right? There are times where we're going to have more energy and more excitement about something. And then there are going to be times where we don't have as much energy and we need to be a little more recluse and be a little more isolated and tend to our own selves. And I think commitment in terms of two or more people has to have space for that to happen for people. To be able to step away and not entirely break off the relationship, but to take some space from the relationship and to take some space for themselves so that they can kind of reassess and realign.  

The etymology of commitment comes from a word that essentially means to join together or to unify in some way. That’s the original definition. And so if there's two or more people coming together and joining together, there's still two individuals. And in order for that connection to be healthy, the individuals still need to have a sense of who they are as two individual people without the relationship. And then also in the relationship. Maybe we're jumping in really deep, really fast, but I feel like it's this balance of joining together and choosing someone, choosing the relationship, choosing the connection and the relationship every single day, while also knowing when you can take space for yourself and you can perhaps take a break or ask for some space, or really ask for what you need to continue to show up and make that commitment every single day.

Kimmy: I think that the tricky thing is the feeling that people often get, the fear that people often get about losing themselves. And it just happens a lot. It's not like we made up the idea, but I feel like I've spoken to so many people and have experienced this for myself as well - the feeling of losing yourself in a romantic relationship. You have this either grasping of someone else and that kind of being a definition of who you are and what sort of sphere you live in, or you're really scared to step into another relationship because you don't want to lose yourself in that way again.  

So I don't have a ton of practice in romantic relationships with what those check-ins would be and how much malleability you need to have within the relationship to grow with someone while also growing for yourself and being vocal about that and checking in and saying like ohh, you know, I think I need to step away and do this thing for myself. That's a really tough dialogue to figure out with another person. And when you start to have that dialogue and when you start to have those feelings, a couple of things can happen. You can get really nervous to have the conversation and stay quiet and suppress those feelings or you can start to have the conversation and it can spiral into something else because you haven't quite figured out the dialogue for it to be a productive conversation, or you can have the conversation and really grow from it. And the other person can see you in a way they maybe haven't even seen you before. And I think all of that change and all of that possibility for unknown, can be scary. It's scary to step into that.

Hollis: Yes, absolutely. You said so much that I could unpack right there, like starting from the very beginning of commitment being scary because you can either feel like you're getting lost, like you have the potential to get lost in somebody else or losing yourself in somebody else or in a relationship or not wanting to give yourself away or give into another relationship. And so keeping yourself open and not wanting to commit and keeping yourself open to that. Or if you're the opposite, where you love commitment, and you over commit and you jump into it really quickly, and then you find yourself kind of drowning in how much you've committed and realizing that you now have to get yourself out of it. It's like kind of two ends of the same commitment, fear coin.  

But when we're talking about committing to somebody else, I think the thing that I want to emphasize is that most of the time we're going into relationships based off of a feeling and an attraction. There's something that draws me to this person and there can be practical, kind of grounded reasons why we might choose to partner with somebody, whether it be friend, business, or romantic, but most of the time it's because it feels organic and it feels natural and we're not thinking about if we’re going to lose ourselves in this person. We're not like, overly intellectualizing every little thing that we're doing right off the bat, right?

Two things that we've talked about in previous episodes, Security in Relationships, and the last Home episode, is what does self possession look like for you? First and foremost, how do I feel when I'm feeling the most secure in myself and when I'm feeling most at home and stable in myself? And then if I'm entering into a relationship with somebody else, how do I maintain that sense of centeredness that sense of self possession, while still being with somebody else? While still allowing myself to be open and vulnerable and allowing there to be an intermingling of our ideas and our thoughts and our choices, but still being able to hold true to who I am and what makes me feel most like myself and makes me feel most alive and who I am. And that is an ever growing, ever evolving dialogue that you have to have within yourself?

But I think it's necessary when we're talking about commitment in particular and we start to layer on things like attachment styles and especially when you start to recognize the different patterns of behavior between you and the other person and whether or not taking space is OK or it's not OK, or if it brings up feelings of fear, or if it brings up feelings of wanting to push someone away. And that constant check in of what makes me feel at home in myself, and then what will allow me to feel most secure in this relationship?  

And then ideally finding some sort of dialogue around that. Which I think that's the trickiest part, right? We can start to come up with all these different thoughts for ourselves and ideas for ourselves, but then being able to put it into language and communicate it and deliver it to the other person becomes the trickiest, which we will get to in a future episode when we're talking about communication in relationships. But if there is a foundational level of security in yourself and trust in yourself, then there is an ability to trust yourself to find the space, the time, and the language to communicate that and express that to another person and still hold yourself in the process.

Kimmy: So committing to another person really starts with committing to yourself. Yeah. That's like generally a very good reminder to have for yourself when it's starting to feel a little bit weighty in another relationship. Or when you're thinking about commitment, just being like, am I still committing to myself? And does this commitment to myself also involve the commitment to another person?  

As you said, we commit to ourselves every single day, we commit to family members, we commit to friends, we commit to, jobs, extracurriculars, all these things. And those are just as important to our feelings of self possession. So having this commitment to another person can also serve our commitment to ourselves. Not to make everything come back to like ‘how this is serving me?,’ because that’s not the point. But in some respects it is important to remember that you are committing to this as a way to also take care of yourself.

Hollis: Yes, absolutely. Because if we're talking about these other types of commitments, friendships, jobs, extracurriculars, you know, committing to feeding yourself every single day, like all of these have to do with taking care of yourself. So why would any relationship not include that same level of self nurturance and possibility for growth? Or even if it's not necessarily ambitious growth like, just continuing that space of evolution as we continue to transform day by day by day. As we continue to age. As we continue to learn. As we continue to shift our ideas and our opinions. That we're doing this in support of each other and that evolution unfolds in the same way that we would commit to absolutely anything else in our lives. And because I feel like I wanna dissect this a little bit more, I want to go back to commitment as a restriction. You know, in a way, yes, it is, right? But it goes back to that phrase of ‘every no is a yes to something else and every yes is a no to something else.’ It's almost like the perspective of commitment being a restriction is just putting a spotlight on everything that you're saying no to when you're saying yes to something else instead of putting a spotlight on everything that you're saying yes to.  

Because back to commitment and consistency being similar, commitment also invites in stability and security, and something that you can rely on or somebody that you can rely on outside of yourself and the support that you can rely on outside of yourself. And there is so much possibility for growth and there is so much possibility for less anxiety and for a more foundational level security. When you allow yourself to bond and unify with somebody else, there's a security and a sense of, ‘oh, I can take the weight off of my shoulders.’ And I think if there was more of a focus on that and less of a focus on, ‘oh, well, now I can't be with any of these other people or I'm shutting out all these other options’, then I think that there would be less general fear of commitment feeling like you're committing yourself to a mental institution or committing yourself to a life sentence.

Kimmy: Right! Wait. Can you just explain that definition to listeners?  

Hollis: Well, around the 15th century, the definition of commit became synonymous with committing somebody to a mental institution. It is so loaded, so, so loaded.

Kimmy: It really is.

Hollis: And I do think that, you know, there's probably a lot of people out there, the commitment non-believers that would be like, yeah, committing yourself to somebody for life is like committing yourself to a mental institution. And we're here to discuss all perspectives, so.

Kimmy: Right. I think especially now in 2024, there is more hesitancy to commitment than there ever has been. We have so many opportunities to not commit to something and things are just changing. People are making decisions and stepping outside of lines and expectations that have been set previously in different generations. The path is not necessarily that you commit to the same job for the rest of your life or commit to the same person for the rest of your life. You know, nothing is so scandalizing. It's not so scandalizing if we decide to quit our jobs and start a new path. If we decide to go to school at 50 years old. If we decide to get a divorce. If we decide to break up this relationship. It is still very scary, but it's not as -

Hollis: It’s not as black and white.

Kimmy: Exactly. Exactly.

Hollis: Like good or bad and moral and immoral.  

Kimmy: Right, right. So we have these options built in and we're becoming more accustomed to having those options. And even if you were a person who was making those decisions that were less popular ones in years past, I think that now, you feel even more empowered to make those decisions for yourself. But in my own experience, I have myself, and I have heard so many of my friends ask, and have been in so many conversations where people ask, ‘what if they're not right and what if there's something better out there?’  

I was in a relationship where I was constantly questioned from the other person about whether or not there was someone better than me out there, which is so it's not OK. But I think a lot of people experience questioning what if? What if? What if, what if, what if? And it limits us from allowing ourselves to step into something with a little bit of faith and understanding that things will change no matter what, and you can either choose to change with it, or change and grow in a different way. There are always options. Sorry, I went on a real tangent. I just realized I've been talking for a long time.

Hollis: No, that's OK, because I think it's a really good point, particularly when we're talking about this moment in time collectively and societally, because we have such power of choice and there are so many choices. And the question of, ‘is there something better out there?’ is something that I think that most people think about now, whether they're thinking about their jobs or their relationships or anything. Especially when you live in a comparative culture. Thanks to social media, you're always going to see that there could be something that's better out there or you're always going to see that the grass is greener over there, even if it's just from a photo and you're not getting the full story.  

I think there has always been that temptation, but I think it's ramped up even more now because you are less expected to stay committed to anything. I mean from the recession in the early 2000s, it became ridiculous to expect to stay at a place for 30 years and then retire with your severance and that almost became obsolete over the course of a couple of years. And then also with the rise of divorce and kids from divorced.  

It just feels like there is endless, endless, endless options. And so why wouldn't we hold out for the ‘very best’ option? Why should we commit to the ‘just good enough’ person that comes along? Or job or whatever? Why should we settle? It’s like we've lost sight of the power that commitment can bring and the stability that commitment can bring. Because if you think about living a life hopping from job to job, person to person, place to place, whatever, that can feel really exciting, but it can also feel really destabilizing in a lot of ways. It's kind of forcing you to reinvent yourself over and over. If there is anything that I think commitment shows us, it's what we want most. What we appreciate and want and desire for our lives and dedicating ourselves to that, whether it be the hobby, the job, the person, whatever. And even if you are multifaceted person that is very adventurous and wants to experience all the things, there's a through line of what feels consistent or what is something that I want to commit to in myself and how do I share that and experience that with others? Even if it's not like in a one-on-one bond.  

When we think about this, I would have people ask themselves: of the commitments that I've made in the past, what have I committed to in those relationships? What has come up for me in those relationships? Where I said, oh, I want that, and I want to dedicate myself to that because not only does it spark something in me, but it's also how I want to show up for somebody else. And what does that tell you about what you want for yourself and what you want to continue to grow and see for yourself as you continue to evolve as a human being?  

I'm not here to say that everybody needs to commit to one person for the rest of their lives by any means. I honestly don't even know if that's fully possible because we're ever evolving and changing. But I do think that there is so much merit and so much value to being able to dedicate yourself to one person or one thing and to allow yourself to evolve and grow in that container of security and within the boundary of that commitment. And if eventually you grow beyond those boundaries, then you can move on.  

It's almost like the yoga practice, the practice is essentially the same every time you go. There will be different sequencing. There will be different playlists, you'll feel different on a different day. You will enter into it and you'll notice that you've gotten stronger. Or you’ll notice that you're more tired one day. And it’s so helpful to have the parameters of it being a practice. How are you within the practice today and tomorrow and the next day. This can teach you more and more and more about yourself. If the practice was always extremely different every single day, you would never be able to learn that much about yourself. You'd learn about, how you navigate all these changes more than anything. But you wouldn't have the security and the stability of this is who I am within this container. And this is how I understand myself. And do I want to stay within this container because it provides the ample amount of space that I need to continue to grow, or do I need to move beyond this container? Did that make any sense?

Kimmy: Yeah, yeah. It is coming back to consistency. It's not only that you are consistent within it, but that the container is consistent. You know? That container of your relationship, the experience of your relationship is consistent. It’s always, always growing, but it's something that you are coming to consistently that is a consistent practice and can change and you can grow with it. Did that make any sense?

Hollis: It did. Yeah. Yeah. I think what we're emphasizing here is that. There's this idea that when you commit to somebody or something that it's almost like it becomes a capsule in a moment in time, like you're just encapsulating that and there is no space to grow. The container isn't allowed to expand. And I think that is completely false. No matter what, like there is always going to be movement. There's always going to be fluid boundaries. And so, it's just a matter of remembering that and encouraging that in yourself. If you ever start to feel like you're getting lost, or you're feeling trapped, what are the things that you need to do? What are the things that you need to ask for? How do you need to push up against the parameters so that you can make more space for yourself?  

The other thing that I want to emphasize is devotion. Because there's something about commitment that almost sounds like discipline to me, and I'm sure to many people. And I love to flip the word discipline to devotion in terms of what do you want to devote yourself to? What do you want to dedicate yourself to? How do you want to be devoted to yourself or to another person? And I think that word allows for more space of possibility for, not just for growth and evolution, but also for real love and support and compassion. Because devotion implies that there's an experience of the heart. And commitment almost just sounds like you're committing yourself to a mental institution. Like you're stuck there, you know? I gotta let that one go.

Kimmy: No. That definition makes so much sense, so I think it bears repeating. I'm wondering what you think about our hesitancy, even with devotion, because there is so much emphasis on self and self improvement, self-care. Am I taking care of me? I really just got to protect me. I got to do this for me.

And you should absolutely listen to your body and your mind and take care of yourself  - 100%. But I think that in some cases, we become so involved the self that it's hard for us to make any space for other people and that is something that definitely plays a part in the conversation about commitment. And the word devotion is so beautiful but it's also so heavy. Like it sounds so heavy. But it doesn't necessarily have to be. You have to be willing to put in energy and have a kind of reciprocal give and take of that energy. And when you put energy into something, often, if you're putting it into the places that feel good for you, you'll get that energy back. So I'm wondering if you have any thoughts about that?

Hollis: I feel like you kind of came around to what I wanted to say, which is that there is there is absolutely an overemphasis on self and I think also, post-pandemic, there's all these conversations about a rise in loneliness and people not having the same social skills that they used to have. And going back to the early days of social media, we've become a pretty separate, independent society. There's a lot of fear around social situations and putting ourselves out there with other people and so it can be easier to feel like we just want to take care of ourselves, like we don't necessarily want to have a lot of space for a lot of other people in our life.  

Also, because there's just generally a lot of noise in the world and it can be tough, speaking as somebody who has a bit of social anxiety herself, like a lot of times, it is easier for me to just focus on me than it is to focus on the different social events or social experiences that I want to have. But that said, because we're living in a world where there's so much stimulus and there's heightened levels of stress and anxiety, and we already feel like we're getting hits of socializing and connection with people, we're just getting bombarded all the time. I think that there is a collective fear of wanting to put energy into something without knowing what the return is going to be because we're all functioning on a level of burnout, a sense of survival, being over-stressed, over-worried, and over-worked. We are trying to conserve our energy and only wanting to dedicate it where we know we're going to get it back.  

People are so used to having immediate responses from everything and having what they want right when they want it. There is also this feeling of not wanting to commit to something when you don't know what the outcome is going to be, or not knowing what could potentially happen. You know, not seeing the whole trajectory ahead of them. And what you just said, I think rings so true, that when you do give energy to something or towards something, most of the time you're going to get it back. And if you don't get it back, then listen to our Security in Relationships episode and know when it's time to leave or to move away from it. But also there is something that I think we've all kind of forgotten and that's when you do give yourself to other people or to something that you love or to something that you enjoy, you will naturally get something in return. You will naturally get the pleasure of taking care of somebody or applying yourself to something that is challenging or just, you know, pushing yourself in in ways that might seem daunting. At least like just trying, it can feel really satisfying. And I think we've forgotten that discipline, commitment, devotion, all of these things, even though they seem heavy and they seem dense, naturally have a really great and very satisfying return. It's not like the immediate dopamine hit return that you that we are so used to getting, but it's something that's really kind of nutritious and substantive and supports us on a really deep secure level and I just don't think that that's as emphasized in the culture that we live in.

Kimmy: Right. And often when those acts of devotion and commitment are aligned with your values then it feels a little bit less heavy and a little bit more like love. You don't have to think about whether or not you want to do this thing. It feels like a natural path forward. Those decisions to do something out of commitment or out of devotion or out of consistency, just feel like, yeah, of course I would do this. Why wouldn't I do this? This feeds my soul and this feeds my values.  

I want to add on to what you were saying a little bit. I think another one of the elements that makes commitment and relationships a little bit daunting is the fact that it could come to an end and people have the thought of like, well, this was all for nothing. All of this time, all of this energy that I poured into this, this many years, this many months, you know, whatever it is - and it's all for nothing. Which is obviously, pretty much never true. We grow from any experience. I don't think it's as scary as we make it, but when you do go through a heartbreak or a choice to uncommit yourself to someone -

Hollis: Decouple.

Kimmy: Yeah, exactly. Those thoughts, those feelings come up.

Hollis: Yes, completely. It's the kind of trauma response, for lack of a better term, that people have when they are confronted with the possibility of commitment, of remembering the most painful part of the last time they committed, and that being the deciding factor of whether or not they should commit to something. But what you just said about doing something based off of your values because it aligns with who you are and especially if it really, really feels good, you can have faith that you've done something from your heart and you've done something for yourself. If it's like a relationship breakup or if something ends poorly, hopefully you can trust that the other person has done something that aligned with their own values and doing it because they also were lit up by the experience. Otherwise, you know, hopefully they wouldn't have entered into it. And that in itself is always worth doing. That is reason enough to choose to do something.  

I think about that all the time with this business. If I'm not doing something that brings me joy and that makes me feel lit up and excited, then what's the purpose of me even doing it? So that helps me stay committed to this work every single day. And it also is what helps me stay committed to my partner and to my friendships. It's the, I want this person. I want this person in my life because of XY and Z reasons and so I will do the hard work because it brings me so much joy now and because it makes my heart just feel flooded with life. And it is those experiences and those people and those choices that are the reason to live honestly. I mean maybe that sounds a little a little reductive, but I think that it's the choices that we make that make us come alive that remind us of our reason for being in our reason for living. So even if it were to end poorly or even if it were to end painfully, there's all the goodness of choosing it because I wanted it, and because I was excited about it. And if there is pain, that's just more possibility for breaking open into a more whole version of who you are. If we don't ever experience pain, it's just not a whole a whole life.  

But I know, even saying that, some people might feel like it's not enough to make certain commitments. But I think I would just ask people like, what is the alternative? If you're looking at something and you want to commit to it, but you're terrified of it because of the possibility of ending, you know, what if you never do it? And what if you have to live with the possibility of never having tried? You know, people ask that question all the time, but it's very, very, very real. Like is it regret or is it, you know, potential failure that you want to live with? You know, it's not confirmed failure or confirmed pain or confirmed ending.

Kimmy: Allowing yourself to open and be vulnerable to the experience of change and be open and be vulnerable to someone else. We would never make any choices if we didn't make one first, and then the next. It's like the saying, ‘any decision is the right decision.’ Allowing yourself to step into a choice for yourself with a sense of openness and vulnerability and really conscious moments of gratitude and joy for all of the sweetness that comes with it as well. And all of the good parts. Because you're making those decisions, you're making those commitments for a reason.  

I think that once there are conflicts that come up, those can become really big and really, really loud and we can only see the big and loud things and we can start to lose the daily sweetness. And so I think that allowing yourself to really just feel the gratitude for those things and feel your acceptance of that also allows you to move forward in a way that feels really aligned and feels like, oh, this is all for something. This is all a part of it, you know?  

And when we step into a committed relationship with someone else, we are getting all of their stuff and some of their stuff becomes our stuff. And we've spoken about allowing yourself to make space for someone else, but I'm wondering what your thoughts are about just generally navigating different personalities. What do you think?

Hollis: Well, as a serial monogamist who has entered into relationships so easily over the course of her life, I have a lot to say about that. And also having dated many different personalities. But I honestly feel like that's something that I want to come back to in our compromise episode that will be coming up next. Because making space for another person while also holding space for yourself is a whole dialogue and it's a whole long conversation that I really want to get into. And there's a lot of nuance and there's a lot of detail and it's something that obviously comes with commitment because you're committing to somebody else's stuff. I mean, when you're committing to somebody in a romantic sense, you're not just committing to them, you're committing to their family, you're committing to their pet, you're committing to their job, like you're committing to everything else that they have and inviting that into your life. When that happens you have to consider how much space you want to give and what you want to give space for. So that definitely falls into the conversation on compromise more than anything.  

So I guess for everyone listening, just know that this is part of an ongoing conversation that we're having that will continue in the next episode for sure. I do not want to make it seem like I'm avoiding answering this question because I definitely want to get into it. But I think what we're saying in general is that there is a sense of not knowing the full picture when you're committing to somebody or committing to something. You can't ever know the full extent of a human being. You can't ever know the full extent of the path that you're choosing to walk down. And because of that, commitment requires a level of bravery and courage. And if there's anything that can help you stay close to why you've committed to something or when to commit to something, I think goes back to what I was saying at the very beginning, which is that you have to know yourself, first and foremost. You have to know your values. You have to know what it is that makes you feel whole in yourself. And that no matter what happens, who you commit yourself to, who you don't commit yourself to, that you've always got your own back.  

I listened to this podcast years ago, I think it was on This American Life. I could be wrong, but it was about this family who had this very premature baby. And she was so, so, so delicate. And it was following these two parents as they were hoping to see this baby live and one of the quotes from, I think it was a father, he said, ‘having a child is having faith in a future that you can't see.’ And I think about that all the time. And you know, spoiler alert, that child did live. And I think she's still thriving.  

But anything that you commit yourself to is having faith in a future that you can't see. It's having faith in yourself that you will hold yourself through it. Good, bad, ugly, beautiful. And also, you know, trusting whatever outcome you're entering in on, especially if it's with another person, that they'll show up with you and if the day comes that they don't, ideally you figure out the tools to work through it together. And if you don't and it ends, then that’s perhaps the story that you were just meant to be on. But it's never without heart that we enter into these commitments. And therefore it requires that courage.

Kimmy: I love that, ‘faith in the future that you cannot see.’ That's so beautiful. I think that often we feel the need to feel like we've landed. Like we can explain ourselves and our situations in a concise one or two sentences, but really we are just always following, for as long as we're living, the path of a future that we can't see. And when you apply that to a choice that you're making for yourself, if can feel really liberating and exciting.

Hollis: Yes, yes, exactly. Liberating and exciting. Not confining and constricting.

Kimmy: That exactly.

Hollis: Well, this was a wonderful conversation about the highs and lows and expansive and not so expensive qualities of commitment. And I'm really excited for our next conversation on compromise in relationships and the next dimension of relationship dynamics. And also the next dimension of what commitment really means as well. So I'm really looking forward to that.

Kimmy: Me too.

Hollis: Is there anything else that you would like us to touch on today, Kimmy?

Kimmy: I don't think so. I don't think so. I'm excited to get into compromise. The next step.

Hollis: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. It's going to be juicy. All right. Thank you, Kimmy.

Kimmy: Of course. Thank you.