In this episode, Hollis and Kimmy challenge the conventional notions of communication. What if we relieved ourselves of the pressure to always get it 'right'? What if we viewed communication as a shared act of creation, a collaborative process within relationships?

Listen to their conversation.

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Hollis: OK, we're finally here. I don't know why. I'll blame Mercury retrograde, but it's taken us a really long time to get here. Like weeks. I kept putting off having this recording and rescheduling it and rescheduling it, and then even today I was stuck in traffic. We had auditory issues. It feels like we've gone through a lot to get to this moment and being able to actually communicate about communication.

Kimmy: I know, I know. I was just thinking about that when we were going through our audio glitch. I was like, this is just pointing directly at some of the things that are completely out of our control when it comes to communication and can make communication hard to really settled into, you know?

Hollis: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. It's almost like, you know, when you want to talk to somebody, but you know that when you get on the phone with them, it'll be like an hour-long conversation. So you just keep delaying it. It's almost like that. It's like, you want to have the conversation and you want to connect with that person but the time in itself is almost a delay, but either way, we are here and we're here to talk about communication in relationships particularly. And I'm so excited about this conversation because I feel like we have some really good points to address, some really helpful points to address, and I want this to be concise, even though we're talking about communication, which is such a vast area of the human experience, so I think this conversation will be kind of an overview on a lot of things, but I do want to get into the nitty-gritty about a couple of things for sure. So should we just jump in? Should we just dive into this juicy conversation?

Kimmy: Let's do it.

Hollis: The first thing I want to say about communication, just to kind of like, lay the groundwork for this conversation, is that words have weight, and when we communicate with one another, we're taking what is inside of us. And doing our best to express that through whatever language tools we have. And there is power in that experience. There is power in that process, but at the same time, language is really reductive. You know, we only have so many words that we have access to and we only have so many words in our own individual vocabularies, and it can be really difficult to find the words and express ourselves in the way that really feels honest and aligned with what is inside us that we want to get out. So the process of communicating can be really tricky at times.  

I think that we spend a lot of our lives doing our best to communicate, but I think a lot of people, myself included, feel inhibited by communicating and actually using our words in many instances, and so it's much easier for us to stay quiet. And so I want the intention to really be about exploring what self-expression means by using our words. And also what self-expression means when we're doing it with another person that we care about or with other people that we really care about in a relationship. So this is going to be a conversation that's less about body language, but it's really about how we tap into our verbal power and our expressive power and our creative power when we are doing our best to share ourselves and connect with other people through the power of and through the experience of dialogue. Does that sound good?

Kimmy: Yeah, that sounds great. Communication is tricky because what you really want is to feel like you can express yourself and feel like you can land somewhere. And when you can't quite find the right words, you can't quite say the right thing and you're looking at someone else and being like, OK, but is that making sense to you, is it not? And then you're looking at yourself and asking, is this even making sense to me? It can feel really, really limiting. So I would love to start there.

Hollis: Yeah. I think when we meet somebody that we feel really connected to, there is an experience of you feeling like you're seen by the other person and that, by them seeing you, there's this mutual reception that's going on of being able to connect. And of course, that happens not just through dialogue, that happens through a lot of things, through other forms of communication, but being able to have that foundation of space being made in the relationship where maybe you don't always say the right thing or it doesn't always come out the way that you want to, but there is this layer of compassion and understanding that it doesn't always have to come out perfectly.  

I think it's really helpful when we're talking about these committed relationships where you need and want that support from the other person. And I think we can take that mindset into virtually any realm of communication that we have with anybody - that we are not perfect. And that everybody else is not perfect and so, therefore, it's not always going to come out perfectly. How can we leave more space for people to perhaps make mistakes as they're trying to find the language that they need to be able to express themselves? In the same way that, you know, we would want to be offered that same kind of grace? We all enter into language and communication from very different backgrounds, and even just the way that we say things can be misinterpreted.  

I mean, I'm thinking about my partner and I, we both speak English, like English is our first language. But we come from very different backgrounds. He comes from a Caribbean American background. I come from what I would like to say is a California American background. You know, the way that we express ourselves, we can be saying things and just completely not hearing one another, even though we're speaking the exact same language. So it's about getting into those moments of, you know, why am I not hearing this person? Or when do I not hear this other person? And when do I feel safe enough to communicate and express myself? And when do I not feel safe enough to communicate and express myself? And when does the other person feel safe enough to communicate and express themselves? And just starting to pay attention to when there's the disconnect.

Because communication is all about connection, it's all about, again, seeing the insides of somebody else and them seeing the insides of you. Establishing that throughline of connection. So where is the disconnect happening either within you, when you're trying to get it out, or when you're hearing somebody? Like what are those spaces for you? Because there's likely to be patterns to be aware of.

Kimmy: Yeah. You know, if you're getting to know someone and you're coming from these different backgrounds, there's a part of me sometimes in those situations that's like, "Okay, of course, of course. I'm not going to be received in this way." And of course, I question if I am receiving them in a way that feels really honest? At what point do you recognize, I am being received or I'm not being received or this feels connected or this doesn't feel connected? And how do you employ some tactics without it feeling like you're employing tactics to get to know this person? I love tools in those ways, but I never want to use tools in a way that feels unnatural because there should be a level of compatibility.

Hollis: Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think especially when we're talking about these committed relationships or entering into committed relationships, I think that most of the time it's intuitive. You know, you can sense when somebody gets you or when they don't get you or when you're communicating and you both understand one another or you don't. Especially early on, I think that it can be kind of apparent quickly because you'll say something and the way that the person responds, either based off of the words that they use or the way that they respond to you, or the way that they just don't even respond to what you say at all, you start to see where there's connection building and brewing, and when there isn't and if they're, you know, for lack of a better term, picking up what you're putting down. I think that it's felt in a real sense and you can know because there was good banter or you say something and they really respond to what you said, and we'll talk about different types of conversation styles also in a bit. So, like, if they meet you in the same kind of conversation style that you're expressing, you know, I think that that's a way that you can sense that there's that mutual reception happening, that you're kind of on the same wavelength when it comes to how you're communicating.  

When it comes to starting to recognize where there's disconnect happening, that's also, I think, felt. When you say something and the other person either doesn't respond or doesn't respond in a way that you're looking for, that's when the different tactics can come up. It can be as simple as, "I'm not sure you heard what I was saying," or "let me say it this way instead," or "let me try and express this differently," or practicing mirroring, which is very specific and I think can be reserved for, you know, kind of confrontational or conflictual conversations. But I think when it's casual, it's more along the lines of just checking in with the other person and you can even do it on your end where you say something and say, "Does that make sense?" I do it all the time. I say, "Does that make sense? Or do you get what I'm saying?" or, you know, little phrases like that, I think can be helpful just to make sure that you are also checking in with the other person to make sure that they heard you correctly.  

And that's the thing that I think that a lot of people are wary of when it comes to conversation is to actually name the imperfections of communication as you're having it. You know, by saying, "Does that make sense?" at the end of a statement that I make, that's me automatically saying, "I don't know if what I said came out correctly or if it made any sense." You know, so can you mirror back to me if it did? And I think especially when you're getting to know somebody that those kinds of questions can be helpful to make sure that you are in fact on the same page and then they can respond accordingly from there. And you can sort of feel it again in your gut if they actually are responding to what you put down, or if they're responding to something completely different.

Kimmy: Yeah. Thinking about first dates with people and needing to ask questions like, "Does that make sense?" Or when those questions come up, those verifications for, "Okay, am I being heard?" You know, that becomes a little bit more natural, but there is always, when you're getting to know someone, a bit of tension in how you're received and it feeling like a safe place for you to express and be yourself and also, in turn, you're creating a safe space for someone else to express themselves.

Hollis: Yeah. And that, I think, also becomes the next layer. You know, we're talking about words specifically and having the right words to say and as I said before, language is reductive and there are endless combinations of words that we could use to describe one personal experience and it's an endless spiral that we can go down in terms of like what words to use, when, why, and expanding vocabulary and whatnot. But the other layer on top of that is what kinds of conversations do you feel comfortable having and expressing yourself in those conversations? If we're having a conversation that's just, you know, very social and you're talking about what you ate for dinner last night or something like that, then that's a certain type of conversation. If you're having a confrontational conversation or a conversation where you're clearly trying to resolve some sort of disconnect or conflict, that's another type of conversation. If you're having a conversation where you are expressing yourself vulnerably, like expressing how you felt about something or how you feel about somebody, even if it's expressing affection to the other person, that's a certain type of conversation. And so these different types of conversations that we have, we might feel safe in some of those conversations and not in others.  

I personally feel really safe in conversations where we're talking about our emotions and we're talking about how things made us feel. Not everyone is comfortable in those types of conversations and they might have less access to language at those times because they feel more exposed or vulnerable, and also because maybe they haven't had as many conversations that have been safe in their lifetime where they've been able to express themselves openly about how they felt about something. It might be more difficult to then find the words and even to actually get the words out of you then have an actual conversation.  

So it's like this added layer where we're not just talking about the words that we use, but we're talking about the context in which we use them and starting to pay attention to what are the types of conversations that you're having. When do you start to feel the ickiness or when do you start to feel like you want to be silent or you want to be more reserved? Or when do you start to feel agitated or you start to feel like you're going on the defensive when maybe that's not necessary? And paying attention to those types of conversations and questioning why is this not necessarily a conversation I'm comfortable having, or why am I coming to this with more reservation?

Kimmy: I have a hard time with confrontation. I still have a hard time with confrontation and one of the things that helps me is just, in a moment of confrontation, expressing that this is hard for me. And also just telling myself in those moments, or if I know there is a big confrontation that's coming up, or something that I really need to express with someone or work through with someone, taking that time to be able to ask myself, "Okay, what is it that I actually want to express here?" Because we have all those feelings that come up when we are uncomfortable with something and we feel really vulnerable and exposed. Where you have your anxiety, your fear, your insecurities come up and they blockade you. And for me, I can't think of anything to say. I freeze in those moments. So what do you think about noting those things to or with someone?

Hollis: Yeah. Yeah. So there's two things. The first thing is what you were originally saying about how you have difficulty speaking through conflict or speaking through confrontational experiences. I think the first thing that I would recommend people do is just start to become really mindful of what types of conversations they have difficulty having. So that way, even if they don't have the language in the moment, they can know on the inside that, "Oh, I'm in a conflict right now and I need to speak and I don't have the words” or “I'm having too intense of an emotion” or whatever.  You can just say, "I'm having a hard time speaking right now. I don't do well in these situations. Can we take a beat and come back?" Because cultivating that awareness is the first step. Cultivating that awareness of, "Oh, these are difficult conversations for me to have. I can actually take a break and take a step back." So the first step being recognizing that you have difficulty having certain conversations or saying certain things.

Then the second step is actually saying whatever it is that you need to say about maybe taking a break or maybe taking a step back. I think that it's really important to recognize that you can take up as much space as you need in any conversation. And maybe I say that with a grain of salt because I have known people who just, you know, trample over other people with how much they speak, and so maybe there's a certain amount of awareness when it comes to actually letting other people take up space. But when it comes to taking up space in order to process, I think that you are allowed to take up that space. Because the other part about language is that it's something that you express and it's something that you take in. And sometimes taking in language or taking in a conversation or taking in a dialogue takes time to digest and to process. It's not necessarily going to happen instantaneously, especially if it's really highly emotionally charged.

And charged in any direction. It could be charged with, you know, anger and frustration. It can be charged with really intense feelings of love. It can be charged with anything that has been made difficult for you to digest in the past. It can feel extra charged and that can even be experiences of joy or pleasure or fun or silliness. You know, if you have not been able to express that in yourself or with other people in the past, it might be really, really hard for you to express that in the future. So you're always welcome when you enter into a situation to say, "This is a little too much for me. I need to back off," in whatever way that that is for you so that you can take it, digest it and try again. Because the whole point of this conversation that we're having right now is encouraging people to find the words to try, even if that means they have to say, "I need to take a break and come back to this."  

Please try to come back to it and use your vocabulary at some point. If that means taking a beat, journaling about it, if it means taking a beat and, you know, talking to yourself about it. If it means taking a beat and talking to somebody else about it so that you can find the language, do what it is that you need to do to help you align with your words and be able to come back and then try to express yourself in that way to the other. And then remember also that every dialogue is a collaboration. So you might come back to the other person and try to express yourself and it might come out imperfect. It might come out messy and might not come out exactly how you want it to, but the other person has a chance to respond, and then you have the chance to continue refining how you express yourself and how you come to that understanding and that connection with the other person. It doesn't have to always be that you have to dance around the conversation that you're trying to have. You can sometimes approach it head-on if you feel comfortable enough to do that. Does that make sense?

Kimmy: Yes. Yeah, right. Communicating sometimes is just as easy as saying exactly what you're feeling and then going from there, and with the help of someone else, being able to ask you questions and having that curiosity to understand. Because, in essence, you want communication to feel supportive, you want it to feel like, "Okay, we are working together to understand something."

Hollis: Yeah. And in the context of this series that we're in, where we were talking about commitment and we're talking about compromise and we're talking about communication, ideally you're in that situation where you're with another person that is curious and wants to allow for that space of exploring with you. Because that's the other thing. You can be uncomfortable having these types of conversations or expressing yourself in some ways, but if you're in a relationship where you are feeling safe enough, you can start to express yourself in ways that maybe you haven't been allowed to in the past, and you can start pushing up against those edges of discomfort and expanding yourself into those conversations where you don't necessarily have the words right away, but the other person allows the space for you to be kind of messy as you're figuring it out.  

So ideally you're already in that place, and even if you're not in that place with your romantic partner, ideally there's friendships or other very committed relationships that you can have, that offer space to explore so that you know when you have these types of conversations with other people, it comes out more naturally.  

I think it's important to just remember that, and again, it's kind of reiterating what I said at the beginning, but you might never be fully seen the way that you want to be seen. I mean, I feel like I have spent a lot of my life trying really hard to use very specific language so that people can understand what I'm saying when I'm saying it and understand me when I'm saying it. And language has always been something that I've been very curious about and really wanting to perfect in a lot of ways, but there have been many times where I've thought that I've expressed myself really, really clearly and the other person just doesn't even hear me. And I think it's important to remember that sometimes you can try really hard and the other person might also just be in their own headspace that day, or their own emotional state. And you might just not be received the way that you want to at every single moment all the time. And you're probably doing the same thing to other people all the time.  

So even in these really intense conversations or in these moments where you are allowed the space to be messy, it's not always going to be perfect. You're not always going to be received exactly the way that you want to. And that's OK. That's totally, totally OK. It kind of makes me think about Rick Rubins, The Creative Act. He talks about everything that comes out of every person is like, it's like you're an orange and you're squeezed. And the juice that comes out of you is just your juice. But how people interpret what comes out of you has to do with them more than it has to do with you. And in terms of creating art, at least from what he's talking about, it's less about them particularly understanding you. The way that he talks about it is that everything that you express is always going to be perceived through a filter from the other person. So you have to know that at least you're expressing your truth and you're expressing yourself as honestly and authentically as you can. It's going to be perceived however the other person perceives it, and that's just the nature of exchange.

Kimmy: So when you're listening to someone, how important do you think it is to recognize how you're receiving someone? Because I've definitely caught myself interpreting something in some way, expressing that and them being like, "No, that's not what I meant at all." But then it still might feel, based on tone or language or whatever, it might really feel a certain way for me. How do you like...what is that balance as the person who's listening?

Hollis: Mhm. Mhm. Yeah, that's kind of tricky, right? I'm thinking of a very particular situation that I've had for myself, where I've very clearly picked up on a certain tone or the way that somebody is communicating to me and it very much feels a certain way, even though that might not be their intention. And I think that's exactly what we're talking about. Not all communication is going to be perfectly aligned, transparent, and clear. And I think it's good to be able to recognize that both things can be true at the same time, because even if the person expresses something and you reflect back to them how you interpreted it, and then they say, "No, that's not what I meant," what they are saying can be true and how you interpreted it can also be true at the same time, because you're coming to it from your lived experience and your filter. And it might be hitting you on some kind of resonant level that has nothing to do with what the person has said but has everything to do with what somebody else said way long ago in your life. And so it's activating something else in you from that time that perhaps needs to be tended to or needs to be looked at or needs some support. And what the other person said can also be true because they're expressing it through their own filter. So, this is where I want to include the practice of mirroring because so often when we're in dialogue, we can misinterpret the other person, or they can misinterpret us and this is where I think making the practice of mirroring more common and more natural in dialogue can be really, really helpful. And the practice of mirroring is simply when somebody says something to you, you repeat it back to them through your own interpretation and say, "You know, is that what you meant or is that what you were saying?" So, Kimmy, say something to me. Let's do it right now.

Kimmy: Do you mean something about? Is it something that I'm feeling or something that I believe in, you know?

Hollis: Say something that you believe in.

Kimmy: Okay, I believe that people should have time and space to do things that interest them and make them feel calm and happy outside of productivity and work and things that feel stressful and like you're hustling all the time.

Hollis: So what I hear you saying is that you believe that people should have time and space to do what naturally brings them joy, that has nothing to do with their work life.

Kimmy: Yes, yeah, yeah, that doesn't necessarily need to be monetized in some way.

Hollis: Yeah, okay. So, that, in itself, is the practice. It's just proving and validating to the other person that you are listening to them and that they are being heard in the way that they want to be heard and helping move the connection forward by just making sure you're on the same page. And I think that's especially helpful when you're having those moments where you're feeling like you interpreted something one way and the other person isn't being heard the way that they want to be heard.

Kimmy: Right, right. What I also like about mirroring is that it can distill some of the things that feel hard to express by just saying, like, what I said to you...you were able to mirror it back to me in a more concise way, saying, "I got you, I got this, I understand this." And that can be added to and whatnot. But when you're struggling to find the words, or struggling to find exactly what you mean, having that connection where someone else sees that and mirrors it back to you, it's so helpful because you can be like, "Ohh yes, that's exactly what I'm feeling," whereas before, I didn't know how to put words to it, but that connection, it can be super affirming to be received and understood by someone in that way.

Hollis: Yeah, and it's especially helpful when you're in some sort of conflictual conversation or conflictual situation, or when you feel like there has been some sort of disconnect because it immediately invites action, and it invites understanding, and it can be done on both sides to help both people feel validated in what it is that they want to express. Because whenever we're expressing something, it's because we have something that we want to be seen or heard or we have a need that needs to be validated or fulfilled in some way. So when somebody mirrors back to you that they've heard you, then at least it feels like, "Okay, I'm being taken care of. My need is being taken care of. What I've expressed has been heard." And so, you feel fulfilled in that sense. That's what most people are seeking, and especially in communication. I mean, if you think about the times that you've had dialogues with people where, you know, you've said something or expressed something, and then they just move on to another subject in a way that feels dismissive, that's what we don't want, right? We want people to respond to us and acknowledge what we've said and maybe add to the conversation or whatever. So by doing that very, very simple practice, it establishes the connection that we're seeking and helps in those moments, especially when it feels like you're in that space where you're not interpreting each other correctly and there is that disconnect, to just bring it back to active connection.

Kimmy: Right. Yeah, I listened to this episode on Ten Percent Happier that detailed the different types of conversations you can be having and the different perspectives that people could be coming to conversations with. And the three that they outlined are you be having an emotional conversation, you could be having a logistical or practical conversation, or you could be having a social conversation - which we were kind of talking about earlier.  

And when two people are having different conversations at the same time, that's where the loss of connection happens. When we're talking about the same thing, but we're having a different conversation. And I thought that was really interesting and, since listening to that, I have tried to tune into, when I have a conversation, what conversation is happening and just having a little bit of awareness. I definitely haven't been successful in doing that all of the time, but just having that in the back of my head. And being like, "Okay, this is an emotional conversation right now. Maybe the person that I'm speaking to just really needs some love and really needs someone to listen to them and not try to solve it for them right now." And then there are more productive conversations.  

Do you think sometimes you just need to ask? "Okay, what do you need, right now?"

Hollis: Yeah, yeah, because so much of dialogue, so much of communication is interpretation. Sometimes it's really helpful just to name exactly what's happening, especially if you're coming into it from the lens of trying to understand the type of conversation that you're having. You know, the other person might not have that lens, but if you ask simply, just to be clear, "Are you looking for emotional support here? Are you looking for a strategy session? How can I help in this conversation? In what way do you need me in this conversation?" I think that can just be really helpful because that also helps people identify what it is that they need when they're coming to you with what it is that they need to express. And it also helps you both be on the same page with regards to supporting each other in that conversation. Right?

The other layer to that that I think is really interesting is that everything that we're talking about in this conversation about communication, which in itself is just like it's so meta, and I don't know about you, but I've been thinking so much about my words as I've been saying them because we're talking about, we're talking about communication. But the other thing about all of this is that you can be doing this with yourself on a regular basis is you can be asking yourself, am I having an emotional dialogue with myself right now? What story am I telling myself in my head, and is it emotional or is it practical? Like you can just start bringing awareness to the types of conversations that you're having in yourself.  

You can start to notice when you're thinking about something and maybe you get distracted and you stray away from it because you don't want to have that conversation with yourself. You can just start paying attention and bringing mindfulness to how am I speaking to myself? What conversations do I feel comfortable having with myself? What types of conversations am I having with myself? And then by doing that and exercising that muscle, that muscle can then be stronger as you go out into the world and have dialogues and conversations with other people, including your closest romantic.  

Starting with yourself first can also start to instill a more compassionate understanding for you to be able to communicate with and have dialogues that are more understanding with yourself, which really we all need to do. We all need to be able to have more compassionate conversations with ourselves and more forgiving conversations with ourselves and more conversations where we, you know, we have a thought and we're like, is that me or is that not me? It's a thought that I had but maybe it just needs to pass, or maybe I really do believe in what I'm thinking. Because by doing that with ourselves, we can then show up more effectively in conversations with other people. The real intention around this whole episode is to do just that. Inspire people to have more compassion when they enter into conversations with people, especially if they're conversations where they feel like they're having disconnect. So that it's not coming from a place of defense, but more of a place of that spaciousness of possibility of, you know?

Remembering that dialogue is imperfect and that we are imperfect as we're expressing ourselves, and so it's OK to allow space for yourself to be imperfect when you show up into dialogues and it's OK. That and then also getting creative and how you express yourself, knowing that you don't have to have the right language all the time. It doesn't always have to be perfect, but that it's really about the exercise of expressing yourself, and that is an exercise. It's a practice we never arrive really. It's never going to be perfect. I think that you can think of, you know, a million things that people have said, even like the most amazing speeches or quotes that are out there and know that those are one in a million.  

You know, how many things do people say or how many times have people said things and it just comes out not exactly how they want to, and that's OK. It's a creative process. It's a creative practice of self-expression and then on top of it, just allowing yourself to have the space to explore with yourself and with other people in dialogue, because it's all about taking what's inside of you and bringing it out through this very clunky, very imperfect system of language. Letting yourself know that it can be messy, and it's OK to take your time to try to find the language and the words. And especially when you're trying to express yourself with another person.

Kimmy: Yeah, I love that. Just the allowance of it being trial and error. We're all just, we're all just trying to figure it out. And when you're trying to figure it out with someone else, you're trying to figure it out double time, so that definitely deserves some acknowledgement throughout the process of like, "Okay, we're getting there. We're getting there together," and these moments can make or break a relationship. They're very telling. And I think it can also be an indicator to know when communication is and isn't working anymore.

Hollis: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I think one last point that I just want to say really quickly in thinking about all of this, about how it can be really imperfect, and it can be really telling in certain relationships and really revealing, is that one other tool that I really want to share that's helped me and that I use with my clients regularly for when we don't feel like we have the words or when the emotion is too high to know what to say, is nonviolent communication. Nonviolent communication is a system and a structure that allows you to find the words for what it is that you're feeling and express the need that you're trying to express. And aside from mirroring, I feel like that is the one other tool that I really, really rely on. Maybe we can put some links to nonviolent communication in the show notes so that people can also look that up as a way to have a really practical tool to support them for when they don't have the words necessarily, as a way to start to develop the words.

Kimmy: Yeah, great.

Hollis: Well, Kimmy. How how do you feel this conversation went?

Kimmy: I feel like we're figuring it out as we go along, right? I completely agree with what you were saying before about it being so meta, and I'm having this conversation being like, am I listening? Am I hearing this from this place, you know?

Hollis: I know, I know. I really feel like my head is doing double duty while I'm trying to find the right words and express myself clearly and accurately.  

Kimmy: Exactly.  

Hollis: All right. Well, thank you everyone for listening to us.  Again, we have a few things that we'll throw in the show notes that we mentioned. And I think I just want to end with this quote that I think about from George Bernard Shaw all the time, which is, “The single biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place.” So if you're struggling with communication in any of your relationships or just expressing yourself in any way, I really want to encourage and empower you to at least try to find the words, even if it starts with writing them down, journaling about them, or, you know, having the very direct line of communication with your partner by saying, “I'm having trouble finding the words for this.” Just doing what you can to actually start having the conversation and the communication so that it actually does happen and that you do actually express yourself.

Kimmy: Thank you, Hollis, and thank you George Bernard Shaw.

Hollis: And thank you, Kimmy, for joining me on this episode.

Kimmy: Of course.